Pictures of Grandma Lucinda Miller James



Mom (Thelma James Reed) and Grandma Lucinda Miller James

I think they were visiting Jean at Batty State Hospital in Rome Ga where she was recovering from TB - L to R Uncle Tiny, Mom, Aunt Jean, and Grandma Lucinda James



Grandma Lucinda and my Great Grandmother
 Tennessee Almira James



3 Generations Top Row L to R Mom, Aunt Leila, Grandma. Bottom Row Me, Sister Denni and Aunt Jean

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   Grandma Lucinda James and Aunt Leila July 1949 Asheville

   

   Funeral Book for Grandma Lucinda James Services

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Stepping Into the Life Of Lucinda Miller James - My Grandmother

Oh how I wish I had asked more questions when she was living with us. What stories she could have told. That is, if she was willing. I am not sure. I cannot remember asking any questions, but they never did any storytelling on their own. My mom and she just did not share stories about their past. I think Grandma only lived with us for a couple years when I was little, but I do certainly remember her and then my Aunt Jean living with us. Grandma Lucinda then moved to Philadelphia to live with my Aunt Mill.

In looking at any one's Indian ancestry, rolls and Indian census are certainly a part of their lives. When you step into Lucinda's life, you begin the roll search. Listed on the Ancestry.com Native American Rolls there are 16 which are listed as potentials for the Cherokee Nation of the 5 Civilized Tribes

The Rolls for Cherokee are:

Reservation Roll - 1817 History -  Cherokee Indians A listing of those applying for a 640 acre tract in the East in lieu of removing to Arkansas. This was only good during their lifetime and then the property reverted back to the state.      This is only an index of applicants, the people listed here did not in most instances receive the reservation they requested

Emigration Roll 1817~1835 History Cherokee Indians Those who filed to emigrate to Arkansas country, and after treaties in 1828 on to Oklahoma. These Cherokee became known as the Old Settlers after the Eastern Cherokee joined them in 1839

Churchill Roll ~ 1908 History  Cherokee Indians By Inspector Frank C. Churchill to certify members of the Eastern Band of Cherokee Indians.  Like the Hester roll it includes a lot of information including degree of blood

Henderson Roll -1835 History - Cherokee Indians A Census of over 16,000 Cherokee residing in Alabama, Georgia, Tennessee and North Carolina to be removed to Oklahoma under the terms of the treaty of New Echota in 1835. See Trail of Tears Roll below.


Trail of Tears Roll ~ 1835 History Cherokee Indians This is actually a report from the Secretary of War, in compliance with resolutions of the Senate, statements showing the persons employed, the funds furnished, and the improvements valued under the Cherokee Treaty of December 1835.


Mullay Roll ~ 1848 History Cherokee Indians  A census of 1,517 Cherokee remaining in North Carolina after the removal of 1838. John C. Mullay took the census pursuant to an act of congress in 1848.

Chapman Roll ~ 1851 History Cherokee Indians Prepared by Albert Chapman as a listing of those Cherokee actually receiving payment based on the Siler Census.

Old Settlers Roll ~ 1851 History Cherokee Indians A listing of Cherokee, still living in 1851, who were already residing in Oklahoma when the main body of the Cherokee arrived in the winter of 1839, as a result of the Treaty of New Echota. Approximately one third of the Cherokee people at that time were Old Settlers and two thirds were new arrivals.

Siler Roll ~ 1852 Cherokee Indians A listing of those Eastern Cherokee entitled to a per capita payment pursuant to an act of Congress in 1850.


An Act of Congress Roll of July 31, 1854 (10 Stat 333) Authorized the addition of 88 individuals whose names were omitted by Siler but who were included on the Roll prepared by Mullay.

Drennen Roll ~ 1852 History Cherokee Indians The first census of the new arrivals of 1839. The New Echota Treaty group. The Drennen roll is a per-capita payment made to Cherokees living in the west who removed as a result and after the Treaty of 1835 Article 9. The roll was prepared by John Drennen and contains the payee's name, Cherokee district and then family group.

Swetland Roll ~ 1869 History Cherokee Indians Prepared by S. H. Swetland as a listing of those Eastern Cherokee, and their descendants, who were listed as remaining in North Carolina by Mullay in 1848. Made pursuant to an act of Congress (1868) for a removal payment authorization.

Hester Roll Index ~ 1883 History Cherokee Indians Compiled by Joseph G. Hester as a roll of Eastern Band of Cherokee Indians in 1883. This Roll itself provides the Chapman roll number and English and Indian name

Dawes Roll Index to the Final Rolls of Citizens and Freedmen of the Five Civilized Tribes in Indian Territory (Dawes) 1889-1914

Guion Miller Roll ~ 1909 History Cherokee Indians Compiled by Mr. Miller of all Eastern Cherokee, not old Settlers, residing either east or west of the Mississippi. Ordered by the Court of Claims as a result of a law suit won by the Eastern Cherokee for violations of certain treaties.


Baker Roll ~ 1924 History Cherokee Indians This was supposed to be the final roll of the Eastern Band of Cherokee Indians. The land was to be allotted and all were to become regular citizens of the United States. Fortunately the Eastern Band of Cherokee avoided the termination procedures, unlike their brothers of the western nation. The Baker Roll "Revised" is the current membership roll of the Eastern Band of Cherokee Indians of North Carolina.

$133.33 Payment - GUION MILLER ROLL OF EASTERN CHEROKEES

After searching through the rolls, I got curious about the "payment" for the Guion Miller. Did they actually get paid? How much? In researching the payment and finding it was for $133.33 I also found my Grandparents, my Great Grandparents and a bunch of Aunts and Uncles on the Guion Miller Roll. Thought the following information which was interesting.

The 1906/09 "Roll of the Eastern Cherokees" is better known as "The Guion Miller Roll". It was created as a result of a successful lawsuit filed by three groups of Cherokees who had not been paid all of the money due them as a result of the 1835 Treaty of New Echota. This is the ILLEGAL "treaty" that resulted in the forcible removal from their homes of those Cherokees who refused to give up their tribal citizenship, and the infamous "Trail of Tears" in 1838/39. Thousands were first herded into "pens" and for weeks/months were given food that was not fit for human consumption, contaminated drinking water, and most were forced to sleep in the open. This was done in order to "break their spirit" so they would agree to go to the western wilderness lands of Indian Territory! It worked-- by the time they were to be transported, they would have agreed to go ANYWHERE in order to get out of the pens!

The Guion Miller Roll is the most important source of Cherokee genealogical research of any of the rolls, because the application required extensive information to be supplied by the applicant. Between 27 Aug 1906 and 18 May 1909 there were 45,940 applications filed from the United States, Canada, Mexico and-- Syria! It listed an estimated 90,000 individual applicants. Each qualifying applicant received a warrant worth $133.33 for their share of the one-time payment due to them. In order for an application to be accepted on this roll, the applicant had to prove descent from a person who was shown on the 1835 roll of Eastern Cherokees (also known as The Henderson Roll), which listed the citizenship of the tribe at that time. In order for them to have been listed on that roll as "citizens", they had to have lived in the Eastern Cherokee Nation..

A Really Nice Story

Haskell  B. James

 Son of A.B. and Lucinda James

Nov 20, 1907

Dec. 26 1907

My friend Norman (the ancestor researcher) in Oklahoma read about my Mom's brother who died when he was 1 month and 6 days old on The James Scroll and sent me the following picture. I just love that he did that.

Finshing Pictures and Info on Thelma (Mom) Before Moving on to Grandparents Albert and Lucinda

Mom was an advid horseback rider. Here she is getting  ready to descend into the Grand Canyon May 28,1941

Mom and Dad - Handsome, Handsome People



Unfortunately there is no date on this Atlana Journal and Constitution Article







The house Denni and I came to when we were born (1942 for Denni and 1944 for me)  to 1955  14 East Shadowlawn Ave, Atlanta, GA When I was 11 we moved to Moores Mill Rd in Atlanta



Frequent riders - Mom and Leila





Mom and the Rock



This was Denni's and My Idea (Probably Denni's) But We Asked Mom If We Could Do It and She Said Yes. We Were Very Excited. They were married in 1934 so this would have been in 1959. I was 15 and Denni 17.




 

I found this in the archives of the Atlanta Journal and Constitution. It costs $6.00 but is well worth it since I have never seen this.

Since it is hard to read and if blown up more it goes off the page, here is the verbiage:

July 17, 1934 The Atlanta Constitution

The marriage of Miss Thelma Roxanna James and Howard Vincent Reed was solemnized July 14 at the Rock Spring Presbyterian church with the Rev. Richard T. Gillespie officiating. The church was decorated with palms and baskets of pink gladiolus, interspersed with seven-branched candelabra.

The wedding music was rendered by Mrs. Louise McCutcheon, who sang "O, Promise Me" and "I Love Thee." "I Love You Truly" was played during the ceremony.

The ushers were C.G. Mosley and Thomas Hill. Miss Leila James, sister of the bride, was maid of honor. She was becomingly gowned in a green mousseline de soie and wore a picture hat in natural shade. Her flowers were yellow roses and pink and white garden flowers.

The bride entered the church with her brother, H.W. James, by whom she was given in marriage. They were met at the altar by the bridegroom and the best man, John Hartken.

The bride's titian loveliness was enhanced by a flowing gown of mousseline de soie in peach shade and a brown picture (hat?) was made of horsehair. Brown accessories completed her costume, and her bouquet was of talisman roses and valley lilies.

The couple left on a two-week tour of the New England states and Canada. They will stop for a short visit with the bride's parents. Mr. and Mrs. Albert D. James, of Washington, D.C. and on the return from their wedding trip will make their home in Atlanta.

Mr. and Mrs. Reed will be at home at 203 Thirteenth Street, N.E. after August 1. Mr. Reed is connected with the Atlanta branch of Knight Brothers Paper Company.

Wedding of Thelma James and Howard Vincent Reed

1920 and 1930 Census for Thelma James

1920 United States Federal Census record for Thelma James

Name: Thelma James
Age: 10
Birth Year: abt 1910
Birthplace: Oklahoma
Home in 1920: East Berlin, Worcester, Maryland
Race: White
Gender: Female
Relation to Head of House: Daughter
Marital Status: Single
Father's Name: Albert D James
Father's Birthplace: Oklahoma
Mother's Name: Lucinda J James
Mother's Birthplace: Oklahoma
Able to Read: Yes
Able to Write: Yes

They lived on a farm which they owned but there was a mortgage on it. Alfred lists his occupation as farmer. He was 43 and Lucinda was 39.

There were 7 children living in the household. Mom was in the middle with Calvin 17, Mildred 15, and Eileen 13, being older and Paul 8, Howard 6, and Albert Jr. 2 years 11 months.

Aunt Cherry (Cherokee) 21 and Aunt Opal 20 were no longer shown as living in the home.

So somewhere between 1910 and 1920 the family had moved to Maryland.


1930 Population Schedule Census Washington City (DC)

Eileen is line 22, Albert - Eileen's husband (Albert E. Price) is line 21, and Mom (Thelma) is line 23.
Eileen is my mother's sister and where I got my middle name.
They were renting a house or apartment for $40.00 a month at 1404 Park Road which must have been an apartment given the number of residences at this address.
Mom was 21 years old, Eileen was 24, and Albert was 32.
Eileen and Albert had been married for 6 years in 1930.
Albert was a golf pro, Eileen a salesgirl, and Mom a stenographer.
He served in the first World War.
Mom and Eileen listed themselves as white.
They did have a radio, could all read, and none of them had attended school since Sept. 1, 1929 and they were all working.

Indian Territory

Part of what became Oklahoma was designated the home for the Choctaw Nation. Later the area would be named Indian Territory. The goal was to provide ample lands for the relocation of Native Americans in the eastern states who did not wish to assimilate.


Delegations to make the territory into a state began near the end of the 19th century, when the Curtis Act furthered the allotment of Indian tribal land. Attempts to create an all-Indian state named Oklahoma and a later attempt to create an all-Indian state named Sequoyah failed but the Sequoyah Statehood Convention of 1905 eventually laid the groundwork for the Oklahoma Statehood Convention, which took place two years later.^[54] On November 16, 1907, Oklahoma was established as the 46th state in the Union

James Tidbits

Girls and Boys
In the 1910 census Alfred and Lucinda had 7 children. One Baby, Haskell, had died in 1907 in infancy. Of the 6 other children only 1 was a boy. As a farmer, was Alfred disappointed he didn't have more farm hands? Interestingly and finally, there was a total of 14 kids born - 7 boys and 7 girls.

JAMES Surname Meaning and Origin:
James is a patronymic name derived from "Jacob" and usually meaning "son of Jacob." In English, Jacob and James are distinctly separate names, but throughout the rest of the world, the two are often used interchangeably.

James is the 80th most popular surname in the United States. James is also popular in England, coming in as the 41st most common surname.

Surname Origin: English

Another Mystery - I Need A Flow Chart

I noticed a discrepancy in the different census about where Grandpa Alfred and Grandma Lucinda said their parents were born as follows:

Alfred said in the 1900 qnd 1910 census his father was born in Tennessee, his mother in Kansas
Alfred said in the 1920 census his father was born in Kentucky, his mother in Kansas
Alfred said in the 1930 census his father was born in Oklahoma, his mother in Oklahoma

Lucinda said in the 1900 census her father was born in Georgia and her mother in Arkansas
Lucinda said in the 1910 census her father was born in Tennessee and her mother in Arkansas
Lucinda said in the 1920 census her father was born in North Carolina and her mother in Arkansas
Lucinda said in the 1930 census her father was born in Oklahoma and  her mother Arkansas

Did they not know? Did they distrust the government and for some reason didn't want them to be able to trace them? We'll probably never know. They certainly had no reason to trust anything the government ever did.


Indians Were Not Citizens

Indians on reservations were not considered citizens until 1924; therefore, they were only included sporadically on most nineteenth and early twentieth-century U.S. federal census records.

The Indian census schedules started after an act of Congress on 4 July 1884 said, “That hereafter each Indian agent be required, in his annual report, to submit a census of the Indians at his agency or upon the reservation under his charge.” Besides other things, these censuses were taken to help the government keep track of who was eligible for land or money allotments.

Artist Mary Adair

A Depiction of the Events in the Life of Nancy Ward

What a wonderful picture!!!! The Beloved Nancy Ward is my 6 g grandmother.

Thelma Roxanna James Reed



Mom and an Unknown Woman. Mom is certainly walking with a purpose!



Mom in Maryland 1n 1935

What a Pretty Woman

Mom and Dad

Death of a Brother and a Little Mystery

In going through old pictures and documents of my Moms, I found a telegram and newspaper clipping about her brother Howard who died at age 25. I never heard Mom say how he died or anything about him. In a previous post, I listed Mom's 13 brothers and sisters and, of  course, he was one I never knew.

It is interesting to read in this notification that 2 names are listed together grouped by the minister's name. Howard's minister's name was Peter Marshall. I knew there was a very famous book and movie named  A Man Called Peter. Peter Marshall's widow went on to write her husband's biography, A Man Called Peter (1951), which was later made into an Oscar-nominated film of the same title. It was a wonderful book. In looking up the info about him, I found he preached in Atlanta and Covington, GA.

To add to the intrigue here is the telegram sent to Mom and Dad that advises Howard is in critical condition. It was in 1942 during the war, but it was sent from Cornelia, Ga. - not a war zone.

So I have to leave the question unanswered. Did the famous Peter Marshall preside over the funeral of my Uncle Howard James and why did he die at 25 years old?

One of the biggest problems with ancestry research is how easy it is to follow a side trail that makes you lose sight of your goals. This will take hours to track down. I leave it to later or someone else. I would rather think that the incredible individual known as A Man Called Peter officiated at the service of my Uncle Howard.

A great comment written by K.C.on March of 2010 about Amatoya Moytoy- Making sure it gets just notice

K.C. said...


The Shawnee and Cherokee Nations adopted by blood and marriage. No matter the racial or ethnic composition of someone who originated from outside the Clans, if they married a Cherokee, they were considered as full-blood by the Nation. They remained "full-blood" unless they remarried outside the Nation, in which case they were considered to revert or relinquish their blood-tie vow. The "provable dna" blood-ties via validated lineages and delineations only became re-defined during the time of Native American removal [Trail of Tears for example], and federal rolls for purposes of documenting the Nation, by the US Government, came into effect. US government required a person to "validate" their "native claim", first, as a way of counting the population which they were removing from native soils, and, then, to "prove" their right to receive federal dollars for support. Moytoy is considered to be full-blood by members of the Nation because his white father married Pride, a Shawnee. Noone knows if Pride was 'mixed blood' or not. With a name like Pride, which is english, it would seem that Thomas Carpenter was not the only white to intermarry at this time. Shawnees had already had at least 150 years of euro-white contact by the time Thomas showed up as a trader. The name Pride is also consistant with many early american names such as Loving, Charity, Comfort, Patience, Simplicity, Mercy, Joy etc. I have an early american ancestor named Comfort and one named Gladness, as well as one name Plenty. The emigrants who established our first colonies had a tough go. They often named their children for the virtues which they longed for, or identified with. Initially, many emigrants worked with the various Nations, and intermarried without racist views. Shawnee and Cherokee, they remembered their blood ties to Thomas Carpenter and by associative lineage based on their own societal order, to the British and, by extension, to the new Americans. So, a few generations later, they actually saw the bonds as ones of family [which is the truth]. British and new American views were roman-euro-centric, however, and did not politically agree. It is my humble opinion that they were wrong. The Nation had it right. People of my people, Blood of my blood, We are all earths children. >k.c